Steve's random and often belligerent Journal -

Steve's random and often belligerent Journal -

Uncle Steve

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	[Aug. 4th, 2012\|04:07 pm]
So, there's been some drama in SFF fandom. I knew nothing about the background, and got involved because I was repeatedly directly insulted. Disclaimer: I started off neutral and not looking for any fight, but quickly decided which side I was on, so this account is not agenda-free. Despite that, if I accidentally quote something out of context, it's because I'm a newcomer who doesn't know the background but got hit by abuse anyway. I will edit it if you link me to better sources. Requires Hate on twitter read something somebody else wrote about a series of books by mevennen, and (despite not having read the books) tore into her online. RH's style is to be heavily aggressive and abusive (people claim it's 'fiery rhetoric') while calling out 'white people' for cultural appropriation in SFF books. That's a valuable service, needs doing - there's a lot of lazy appropriation in that genre. Unfortunately RH descends into hate speech and trolling. Mevennen commented on Cat Valente's LJ (one of my favourite authors), mentioning RH's behaviour in a thread about something else entirely but linking it weakly as an example of general falling standards. (I didn't see this, it was before I got involved.) I don't know why Cat was chosen - she talks to RH on at least twitter and wordpress, and had used her as an example of how women are verbally abused online (they are, but in this case no-one could out-abuse RH. She trolls for offence, and gets it. She has suggested authors have acid thrown in their face, and gives frequent violent / racist abuse. Using her as an example of a victim is hilarious.) mevennen posted on her own LJ... let's say 'strongly'. She doesn't lie back and take crap, and she answered some spitting abuse she was getting with the same level of noise. She'd been called a sociopath, and a racist. She replied that RH should be called Requires Meds. That was deliberately offensive, and she followed it up saying that she wasn't belittling the vast numbers of people on medication, she really thought looking at the constant posting and screaming volume of RH's output that she'd benefit from Magnesium. She also described RH as Chinese, when in fact I believe she was born and currently lives in Thailand - but has described herself previously online as 'of chinese stock'. There were other mistakes, coming from a Mevennen much angrier and deliberately combatative than we're used to. I'm not hiding any of what mevennen said, I've linked to it directly above. Now don't get me wrong, I like shouty abuse of the kind RH specialises in when it's on the internet. I've done it a lot myself particularly about politics, and wrote a post recently arguing that online death threats do not equal a real-life intent to harm. But RH is beyond that line. A trans-woman wrote in Mevennen's LJ: "I will say this: hate speech gets people like me killed." RH posted on her twitter: "yes, hate speech directed at white westerners really will get someone killed" It's all about race. Not real race, not actual minorities or oppressed groups in actual danger, but using the definition that 'white people are racist by default and can't ever be oppressed' as a shield for prioritising abuse over progress. She's a Thai educated in the UK, I'd excuse RH some of that - the area she writes in is real, and harm is being done by white people to people of colour in myriad ways. But she's not genuine. A brief look at her twitter shows that she's not interested in critiquing books, she'll always drop that in favour of abusing individuals. Some people on her twitter answered Mevennen's LJ with extreme vileness. They insisted from the go that Mevennen wrote 'racist bullshit' and anyone who believed her lies was also racist. Mevennen (who always admitted that a writer writing outside their culture will make mistakes, talked to her chinese readers about it including the guy who wrote the short review RH read, thinks criticism is necessary and is actively willing to improve) asked for a single example of problems with her books. None was given in the replies to that post (I asked too). No-one commented claiming to be RH herself (although she kept up on twitter), but when it turns out that RH is winterfox suddenly why she wouldn't come to LJ makes more sense. Here's the level of discourse (sadly the entire post got screened accidentally while the author was trying to turn off comments, it may still get unscreened to link to): Mevennen gets accused of trolling / lying by ...a troll called advancedcookie / @fairyocarina (friend of RH on twitter). I answer citing things AdvancedCookie has just done: "No, trolling is coming on here claiming that RH never made the threats everyone has proof she did make [screengrabs, and she even talks about it in her own journal], *continuously calling people 'White' as an insult* in a thread about racism when you don't know their actual race*, and posting stuff like the 'white women's tears' image with no further comment." Advancedcookie answers: "HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh my god, you people are so delusional and arrogant... " etc. (More all-caps). I reply: "Interesting. Doesn't answer any of the three points raised, half all-caps. Nope, can still be dismissed as just trolling. 2/10." She eventually gets banned and comes back on as another name. Sockpuppets are normal around RH. During the post, I get accused of being a racist about 10 times, and RH calls everyone involved a racist on twitter at least twice. Oh, and when I say that Mevennen's book set in Kazakhstan shows obvious love for the culture and Myth of the region, I get asked if I'm Russian (because otherwise my opinion on how a Brit wrote about myth in a place that isn't Russia and that she actually lived in* is invalid). I never said it was accurate (even the names are flawed), I said it showed a genuine love for the myths she'd encountered while there. I read it as a Brit author writing about a place she knew better than me. But as usual, who you are and what colour you are is what defined the conversation from start to finish, as with every comment I had from RH or her defenders. I didn't have a stake in this before a few days ago. On that little evidence, I can say this: RequiresHate is a cheap bully who doesn't care about the very important subject she's riding on anywhere near as much as getting to shout on the internet every day. She has allegedly been the reason for communities closing, she's been banned from multiple places, one author quit writing after she called for him to be beheaded, and most people just block her before the tide of trolls defending her turn up with sockpuppets and derailing. She's a bully, and the people enabling her need to stop it. catvalente then wrote a post claiming that "colleagues, people who know me and talk with me regularly" "a community of authors" had "circled the wagons" and "ganged up and told [her she] had to" denounce RH publicly, or they couldn't take her seriously on social justice issues again. She also said (and this I just hate) that she'd been pressured to change her Japanese LJ username because it was culturally insensitive. That's appalling, and I said so (I don't know who the person was demanding it). If our imaginations and the idealised personas we take for ourselves online are only allowed to be chained to the country of our birth, that's pathetic. Apart from anything else it will result in foreign cultures barely being mentioned at all, which can't help anyone. She went into detail on why she was okay leaving the name behind - that part of her life wasn't positive. She was a US army wife in Japan and hated it. (In fact, it later turned out that in an area where writing exoticised versions of other countries damages real people and is cultural appropriation, she'd previously said "I, too, can, have, and will again write a book which communicates the Japan I can make up in my head - it's far better than the real thing.") She says that ultimatums from SFF authors 'circling the wagons' to make her denounce someone aren't okay, and because of the pressure she'll not do it on principle. She said she's not responsible for RH's actions. I point out to her that she has fans who have seen her letting RH pull nasty stuff on Cat's own posts, and want to know what the hell is going on. Silence or no-comment on allowing abuse and bullying isn't good enough, and while I'm just a lone fan with an opinion, enough people extremely dislike RH that it's not unreasonable to even pose the question as she's claiming it is. For whatever reason, the spotlight IS on her now. It's about Cat, not RH. RH can take whatever actions she likes, but Cat's fans will form an opinion based on how Cat reacts to that. Because I'm the only one in the pages of replies not giving her unconditional hugs, I come across like a manipulative asshole. Fair enough. As I said in the comments, I'm dismayed at one of my favourite authors failing to act on something which I believe calls her integrity and wisdom into question, and wasn't at my most coherent. I'll have an opinion as an individual, but that's miles away from agreeing that organised ultimatums are okay. Then later she says "I was not given an ultimatum directly" and it's "an author (who) doesn't approve of those actions" "I am pointing out the implication of an author turning unrelated posts into litmus tests about RH." So it turns out that instead of a conspiracy of SFF authors who are anti-RH unfairly demanding that Cat join their club or they'll exclude her, it's... one author making demands in the comments of an LJ entry. Not even demands, but the terrible ultimatum: "However, I'd be interested to see if you place her in a similar category." and "I fully accept that you are not responsible for anyone else's behaviour, however." (The part where someone else hurtfully demanded she change her username may also have been put not very forcefully. By one commenter, once, on someone else's LJ, during a fight with RH. And actually all about RH's unreasonable expectations, and not a directive to Cat.) While this is going on, I mention Hunter S Thompson and Bill Hicks as people who used fiery rhetoric to make righteous indignation into a positive thing. I'm okay with the style, I just don't think RH qualifies because she's an abusive troll with no interest in sincerity. Obviously the discussion gets derailed there and on RH's twitter to be about the fact they're both white men. Yes, when HST started out I imagine it was impossible for women or people of colour to be as outspoken with the same consequences, hence sadly all the examples are men (and Richard Pryor didn't do exactly what I'm trying to illustrate). It also doesn't mean I don't find either of those guys problematic in loads of ways, I was illustrating an extremely aggressive comedy style. RH continues to selectively quote me, replacing my "I didn't 'stand aside' on EITHER side in the one LJ entry I was aware of. I opposed any of RH's friends who came on with slurs, racism and trolling, and I refused to excuse or condone the problematic statements made by another author." (Friends such as AdvancedCookie, and their sockpuppet) with "RH's friends who came on with slurs, racism and trolling". This makes one of her friends who I wasn't talking about feel very hurt by my words. Um. Sorry, that's not my fault. Read the actual entry, just like RH should read the actual books. -- ((EDIT: Oh, the upset friend was @fairyocarina / Advancedcookie. So when she said "I have dealt with a lot of racism and bullying in my life so as a WoC to be accused of that by a bunch of white" (sic) (here) and "Tyrell's arrogance is really sickening and I am actually genuinely upset at being called a racist/bully" (here) she GENUINELY can't see that storming onto a stranger's LJ in all-caps as quoted above, making her first post a 'white women's tears'.jpg with no context and blanket-calling some people of colour White in all-caps as an insult, then coming back on as a sockpuppet with that puppet's first post being entirely all-caps after having been the only person who needed to be banned, on behalf of an unaccountable shock-jock who unleashes a tide of incendiary stuff wherever she decides to point her ill-informed finger at 'white people' next, isn't being a racist bully. But me saying "I opposed any of RH's friends who came on with slurs, racism and trolling, and I refused to excuse or condone the problematic statements made by (their opponent)" somehow is.)) -- RH continues to insist that I can't see any problems with Hunter S Thompson, call me a liar, etc. Her friends continue to say that I'm only okay with HST and Hicks because they're white men, but my 'claws come out' when a woman of colour does it. No, it's not because she's a WOC. It's because what she's doing is toxic and boring. I mentioned those men to show that I don't automatically take biting abuse to be a bad thing, when it's put towards improving the world. RH isn't doing that, she's just doing the abuse. Badly. Cat Valente finally gets another person disagreeing with her no-comment stance, and this time it's a woman of colour saying it. (Valente doesn't reply). So, I managed to alienate an author I respected and liked, whose apparent deep wisdom in her writing I can't reconcile with actions in the real world. Not even going into the part where someone stated that comments (that I believe she, Cat and RH were involved in?) had led that person to take an overdose, and Cat turned it into an immediate wah on how their comments had made HER feel. (Thankfully they were both able to talk about it maturely on the phone later.) I don't know much about the history of RH. Her wordpress blog seems okay and rational, her twitter feed was (during the posting) absolutely inexcusable racist bullying of the highest trolling order. I'm sure she has fans, but in 24 hours she and her defenders have managed to insult me countless times and act like 5 year-olds looking for a new sandcastle to kick over, so I decided to start hitting back. I don't think she's good for SFF, and I'm happy when people follow others' previous example and just ban her or block her. --- EDIT: Ah, now we get to it. "You can't be racist against white people" "making fun of whiteness is not racist". Am I aware that I have privilege from being white? Yes. Does racism white people have towards people of colour carry more weight because white people have more power? Yes. The privilege means I will be acting on assumptions and from a position which have cultural and institutional power behind them, and by one definition that will make me 'racist' in everything I say and do. But the language used over the past few days was always about intent to discriminate based on deliberate prejudice. And fuck that. Yes, I do think that insulting anyone purely based on their race also counts as racist, no matter where the power lies (anything else just leads to 'women can't ever be sexist' etc) but that isn't the important part of what RH's crew DID. Calling a person of colour 'white' as an insult in order to take away their power to reply because you can't be bothered to check is also racist, even by their definition, because you're using the existing imbalance to remove power from a person of colour. It's also lazy. And shows you're more interested in hate than facts. (Not the first time RH has done it, either.) I wasn't angered by people 'making fun of whiteness', or even repeatedly calling me a racist (not just racist from having privilege - a racist), I was angered by false statements and the immediate insistence that I was delusionally following 'racist bullshit lies' I'd seen no proof for. Am I affected much by being called a racist by strangers on the internet, does it do me real-world harm? No. It's hot air. But it does harm fandom. Just like it's suddenly not okay when the person you're insulting turns out to be a trans-woman, fandom needs better than this level of attack-dog social justice wank. It isn't magically better when the fingers typing the words are white or not. Fandom as a whole is propping up and celebrating trolls when we should be working for better things, and as one of the comments pointed out, the Panel Parity issue was a good example of how we're closing issues down with bile instead of coming together to solve them. My problem with this entire thing isn't racial insults, it's our need to stop tolerating the trolls who aren't advancing the issues. If someone used fiery rhetoric to emotionally get through to people and influence the arguments, fine. Most aren't. And in this case, RH and those defending her didn't at all. So let's drop this hero worship of abuse-flingers and move on. -- For shits and giggles, RH's twitter talking about this post: "I'll never stop laughing at a WHITEY MCWHITE dude living in London mooing that a bunch of WOC eviscerating him is "racist bullying" (She doesn't know what colour I am, my neighbourhood is Indian, Pakistani then Bangladeshi, just for info. London, that terribly white place. Again, fact-checking not the strong suit. And the bullying wasn't towards me, it was towards everyone assumed to be on Mevennen's side on her LJ. But apparently LJ is for white women, according to RH when Mevennen chose LJ to post to.) "wrap your mind around that. try it. oh man. "t-those WOC made fun of me on twitter a-and called me w-w-whitey THEY are the racist mommyyyyy" Compare that to what I actually wrote in this entry, which includes "Am I affected much by being called a racist by strangers on the internet, does it do me real-world harm? No. It's hot air. But it does harm fandom." Selective quoting, always selective. "once he's run out of "but she TARGETS minorities" tyrell goes back to crying about the "racist bullying" directed at him by multiple WOC" When those WOC are posting content on the level of @fairyocarina above, yeah, I'll complain that it's crap. Not primarily directed at me, mostly Mevennen, but then the accuracy thing is what I have an issue with and I got brought into it by blanket statements about all the 'white people' in the room. @fairyocarina: "apparently by pointing out someone is "white" is now racism" No, ASSUMING everyone in the room is white as an insult is racism, especially when it contains people of colour. And you STILL don't know who they are. The thing about online bullying is, it doesn't actually matter what colour you are. If enough of your friends show up to derail, spam post, shout and blanket-insult everyone, it has the same effect on the comm. This, fandom, is what you get to choose. We need WOC doing the job RH does, aggressively or not. We don't need trolls.
Link	Reply

Comments:

From:

mevennen
2012-08-04 04:29 pm (UTC)

(Link)

I'm actually much more combative IRL, when I need to be, so we're lucky this is online. I'd much rather behave in a calm and rational manner, which is why you haven't seen this kind of thing from me very much before, but when confronted with assholes, sometimes the only answer is to hiss back, even if one subsequently gets covered in shit.

(Reply) (Thread)

From:

tyrell
2012-08-04 05:14 pm (UTC)

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I don't doubt it :) It was more that I hadn't seen you answer this angrily on LJ before, so I suspected the provocation this time was a special case.

You can tell a lot about a person's approach to sensitive issues by seeing their daily chat, and you'd never given me one red flag. Contrast that with people coming onto your LJ shouting to me that you're the worst ever racist and sociopath (as opposed to 'I heard someone else had a problem with one of her books some time ago'), and I can tell which side I'm on.