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[Jul. 26th, 2009|11:55 pm]
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For a while now I’ve been in a setup where I have several ongoing serious romantic relationships at the same time. Everyone involved has known about it, and are okay with it.

This statement will make most of you assume a lot about those relationships (and probably about me) but much of that will be wrong. So I thought I’d write a bit about something which has become important to me.

Polyamory is not the same as polygamy (multiple marriages) or an open relationship (which all too often can mean just screwing around). It is ‘more than one serious, long-term relationship’ going on at once. It’s referred to as “poly” most of the time, which is what I’ll call it here.

If there’s one thing the entirety of human history has taught us regarding romance, it’s that we can be attracted to and deeply care about multiple people at the same time. Monogamous, lifelong marriage is a very recent invention and certainly not what most societies around the world historically depended on - society does not ‘fall apart’ without it.

Already some of you will be disagreeing with me or assuming reasons for my saying this. Let’s start with the big stuff:
“It is quite possible to love two people at the same time.”

How can we prove it? Well, an often-quoted example is about families. If parents have a child, and a few years later have another one, they don’t suddenly love the first child only half as much as they did before. Love is not a finite pool.

And the same is true for romantic love. I’m not writing this post to try and convert anybody to multiple relationships (most people find being involved with one person quite enough trouble). But others are built with a head for poly. If you’re perfect for monogamy, do what’s right for you. This post is to dispel some myths about an alternative.

Myth 1: It’s all about sex.
If you want lots of carefree sex, for goodness sake don’t go anywhere near poly. Poly is about *relationships* and all the baggage that comes with them.

Myth 2: It’s somehow dishonest.
On the contrary, it’s extremely honest. Each partner admits the feelings for other people that already exist, instead of pretending they don’t. More than that, honesty is critical in all aspects of it or the whole thing will fall over very quickly indeed.

In fact, if I was to recommend the top actions you need to make poly work, they would be

a) Honesty
b) Communication
c) Compromise
d) Balance

Without all of them, it just doesn’t last. There WILL be boundaries that people have, and the only way to find a setup that works is to talk it out. The exact situation which works for all of you will be unique each time, and will *change over time*. If things change, talk about it immediately. If you find anything difficult, raise it.

But in my experience, the difficulties are much less than you’d think. Most of the aspects you’d assume would suffer or be reduced actually aren’t at all. There’s no less intimacy. You don’t change your behaviour to your partner. The feelings and emotional commitment are exactly the same. There’s no long-term jealousy that causes insurmountable problems (if you’re doing it right, and are built for it in the first place.)

Jealousy comes from two things: wanting the attention or items someone else is getting, and/or feeling that someone else is a threat. It will happen, and (as people point out in the comments below) you mustn't feel like you're bad at poly when it does. The critical part is to talk about it, and sort it.

If you’re doing poly right, everyone will be reassured that a new person is not a threat. (If anything, this is the main area that poly makes much easier.) Any activity with someone else doesn’t actually impact the two of you – what you have is what YOU have, it doesn’t diminish because something else happens as well.

Love is not a finite pool.


Which isn’t to say that there are no sacrifices. You do have to compromise on calendar time. I’ve known poly friends for years, and the one thing everyone says is “When you start, get Google Calendar” (because you’re really going to need it.) I would say that calendar time is the one thing you need to compromise heavily on, but then that’s known from the beginning.

And it’s possible to be jealous when you want your partner here right now, and they’re somewhere else instead. The way to approach it is to view them as having a previous commitment – the same as a high-powered job, they are not going to be there every single day. You both know this in advance, and it’s the main aspect that you have to agree to compromise on.

Naturally, this isn’t for everyone. If your lifestyle is one which wants a partner there all day every day, don’t do poly. You need to get enough out of the setup to make this worth it.

Myth 3: It must involve a lack of commitment or intimacy.
Poly is hard work. You get twice the relationship trauma, twice the late-night phone calls (or three times as many). These are real, full relationships.

So why do people do it? I can only speak for myself, but I find it incredibly fulfilling. It just feels right. You do get twice (or more) the positive aspects as well.

Increasingly, I’m coming to believe you have to be hardwired for poly. I have always had zero jealousy for example (provided I know another person isn’t a threat). You might assume most people could manage this, but it’s more extreme than you think. An example:

In a previous poly relationship, I was seeing a girl who had another partner. He’d been away for a few weeks, and she was nervous about how they’d left things. She was due to see him that weekend and was stressing, hoping it would go well. I said “good luck” and “have fun”. How could I do this when I’m talking about her sleeping with someone else?

Well, first of all I was happy she was with him. She cared about him a lot, and he gave her things I couldn’t. She and I had unique things as well, but the relationship with him was very important to her. Also, she was stressed about it and I wanted her to feel good instead.

I was nervous for her and hoped it would go well. That’s how fully onboard with it you have to be. You are not in a relationship with anyone your partner sees, but they will impact on you a little bit because they are a big part of your partner’s life. There’s no room for resentment, and little room for insecurity. These other relationships will probably be going on for a long time, and they are an important part of your partner's world. It’s actually not difficult to want them to go well.

I hope I’m starting to show how secure you have to be to do this. At the very heart of it are the assumptions:

a) Loving someone else doesn’t mean they love me less
b) Loving someone else won’t make them leave me
c) It doesn’t matter who’s better in bed
d) What I value between us is there, it’s real, it has already existed alongside them being with other partners.

There are a lot of sane reasons to be insecure about poly. What I’m trying to say is, if everyone is doing it right then none of them actually become issues.

What do I mean by ‘doing it right’? Assuming the Honesty, Communication and Compromise parts are followed (you work out what your limits are on every aspect, talk about it and reach a point everyone can live with) the next one is balance.

You don’t get someone ‘to yourself’, and that’s a dealbreaker for a lot of people. That’s fine, don’t do poly. Living with someone, marriage and babies all change things dramatically (but there are still setups which work). The sharing of time is known about up front, and you get all the freedoms that your partner does. This is the balance: 1) an equal amount of time with them, and 2) the freedom to also be poly.

It is critical to make sure that you’re being fair to everyone involved. It doesn’t have to be absolutely equal, but if you take in a certain direction then that needs to be balanced later. If you had plans and a partner has an emergency, other partners need to be understanding about it. And you have to make it up to them afterwards.

You work out important dates in advance, so that nothing clashes. If one partner finds a fun event to go to at short notice but it’s your anniversary with another and you can’t change it, then they need to be able to acknowledge that that day was pre-booked.

You need to PLAN in advance, in great detail. You need to be considerate of feelings. And you need to be able to talk to everyone and apologise for last minute changes if they have to happen (with everyone’s consent). And then remember who lost out, and make it up to them.

Always keep it balanced, or you’re not being fair.

Poly is hard work.

Except it isn’t, because you care about your partners and want them all to be happy, so it’s not a chore to keep the balance. It comes very naturally. “I’m sorry hon, X, Y and Z happened. Are you okay if we do the thing we had planned another time? I’ll make it up to you at the weekend, I promise.” Everyone needs to be considerate, and needs to feel they’re not being put in second place.

The benefits of poly are enormous and fantastic. The freedom of it much more than the ‘freedom’ to sleep with more than one person. You no longer have to be everything for someone – in a monogamous couple, if there’s something you don’t do in life then your partner will never have that. You have to be all things to them romantically, or they might wonder what they’re missing and look somewhere else, or feel unsatisfied. That pressure is off in poly.

And it’s not a big deal anyway. That the relationship is precisely the same as a mono one is reinforced every day because that’s exactly what it is – a normal relationship. You do the same things, the same way, to the same extent.

And you get to feel the real feelings you have, for as many people as you genuinely feel them for. Liberating doesn’t even begin to cover it. It is a source of joy.

Everyone grows up with the conditioning that “there’s someone else” means your relationship was deficient or is doomed. That’s because in mono, the current one needs to end (and new ones rarely start unless problems already exist). “But why can’t I be enough for you?!”

Are people who want more just greedy? Or, given the way male AND female sexuality works, the data on affairs and divorce, and… the whole of human history… could it be that some people just naturally want more than one person? Not as a goal in itself, but as a consequence of being attracted to or caring for others in real life, when they love and care about their current partner no less?

Breaking the conditioning that ‘other people = a threat’ is not easy, and you need it proved to you. Once that happens, the rest falls into place very quickly. But because of this (and the balance reasons, and a whole lot more) having a mono partner who is only in a relationship with you and who is not used to poly can be very, very hard on them. Be aware of this if you’re thinking about doing it for the first time. They will get all of the insecurities, and none of the advantages or equality. I’m not saying this can’t work – I was mono with a poly partner for most of this year and it was fine. But I’m someone who can handle poly, in other cases it depends on the individuals and the setup.

What kind of setups can you have? Well, they’re often labelled with letters as a mini-diagram. Picture each person as a point, and the lines as relationships connecting them. One person going out with two is at the base of a “ V ”. If those two were also in a relationship with each other as well, the space at the top of the V would have a line across it, and it would be a triangle (called a “Triad”, and yes it does happen.) Generally you don’t want to be in one, because the relationship trauma when anything goes wrong is immense. But yes, you could get two members of the sex of your choice who sleep with you and each other at the same time. (Two hot bi- babes who are just looking for a straight guy to be in a triad with is called a “Unicorn” by some, because it doesn’t goddamn exist in reality. Not often enough, anyway. Bah. Ahem.)

If two established couples have one partner in a relationship with one from the other couple, it could be shown as an N – the pairs are the sides, and two people then connect across the middle. If your partners in a V each have one other person, it’s an M or W.

Yes, it gets complicated to even picture. Yes, there are many people doing this and every other combination you can think of.

Of course, not every single connection you have is definite and long-term. When you've just met someone it's obviously more casual. This is self-regulating though: you have less free time and generally less inclination to waste it on someone without at least the chance that it could go somewhere serious. Dates with new people happen and a lot of what I'm framing in the context of long-term relationships won't apply there. The respect and rules around your other partners will still influence your behaviour with a new person, though.

Polygamy (multiple marriage) as it is practiced in most parts of the world essentially means “multiple wives” and not “multiple husbands”. One man and very many women is not what the modern liberals who make up most of the poly community would consider poly. It’s more commonly “a hideous misogynist prison”. Poly is feminist (or more specifically Equal), if you’re doing it right. She gets the same freedoms he does, including having other partners.

Guys who are so far thinking poly is a great idea – it’s not just you who gets someone new to sleep with, she does too. Still sure about it?

With all these people around, sexual health is a priority. Many poly couples will insist on certificates and regular checkups. You are now responsible for everyone you are with, and they are responsible to their partners. Take it seriously.

So how does it work day-to-day?

Well, you will have no free time. Ever. Your weekends will be booked up months in advance, and Christmas will bankrupt you.

On the other hand you get to spend all your time with sexy people. And if you like relationships, opening your heart to others and forming meaningful bonds, doing it with multiple people at once can be mindblowing. It’s easy to feel vulnerable – you’re used to leaving a certain amount of yourself exposed and keeping some back, but suddenly you have to make much more available to others than before. Personal time becomes more precious. The amount of love and intimacy increases more than the factor of the number of people (for example more than ‘double’). Going further with real intimacy than you are used to is a very positive thing, if you enjoy that.

“Did I mention this already?” One strange effect I wasn’t expecting is how much your memory improves. This is because you’re having those everyday conversations multiple times – in monogamy there’s a level of mundane daily talk you’d only share with your partner, and in poly you still do. But some aspects of daily life need to be shared with everyone, and that takes getting used to. Again, it’s not an effort (you love the person, you want to share your news with them) but the details are important.

Valentine’s Day is a nightmare. “To the only one I love…” Who do you go to dinner with? Any presents had better be as expensive as those you gave to others (Valentine’s Day will bankrupt you just as much as Christmas.) Planning is required if this isn’t going to end badly.

Poly is hard work, but worth it many times over.

Do I know what I’m doing? Not really. I haven’t been poly for very long, although I’ve known about it through friends for years. I was in a very long-term monogamous relationship until last year, and it never occurred to me to even think about poly. I have never cheated, on anyone. I didn’t feel the need for more freedom – this is just something I tried once I was single, and found worked for me. My partners are mostly long-distance at the moment, which helps in a way. It means there’s no clash as to which one of them gets to cuddle up with me every evening after work, while the other doesn’t (if that changes, I’d have to talk about it with all of them.) It gives me a chance to have more time to myself than I might do in another poly setup, too.

Do I know what’ll happen if I want to get married one day, or have kids? (Very unlikely ever to do either, but let’s imagine). I’m not thinking that far ahead. I know two things: this works for me, and I’d rather have the relationships I’m in now than not have had them just because society says I can only be with one person. Could get hit by a bus tomorrow, etc etc.

To have never have had the chance to make some of the incredible connections I have, because I was already with someone and convention says no… I’m more than happy to have gone this route instead. I don’t get jealous. I value her freedom just as much as mine, and this feels like the right way to do things. There’s a lot to get used to (not least answering the question “So, are you seeing someone?” with “Yes… but I’m poly, so that doesn’t mean I’m not available.”)

There are books on how to make poly work. So much material online and in communities, because people immediately have questions and wrong assumptions. If you want to ask me something, go ahead. Here’s my advice if what I’ve said sounds like it may be right for you:

Poly is actually really easy. You just do it, and it works.

It has all of the positives of monogamy, ditches many of the drawbacks, and the only thing you have to be able to compromise on is calendar time. There is no loss of intensity, emotion, caring, security or long-term connection. The fact they find other people sexy doesn’t spoil anything (and if you really can’t handle the idea that they *could* be attracted to others without loving you less, you need to do some hard thinking about how human beings work). You can still give 100% to someone in every department except ‘time’. All you have to recognise is that things will progress and change, and everyone needs to keep talking. Get buy-in from everybody who will be affected before making any big decisions, and focus on Consent, Consideration and Compromise.


So, hit me with whatever you’ve got. Yell if you like. Write me off as greedy or a commitment-phobe. (Note to commitment-phobes: don’t go anywhere near poly. All the stuff you hate gets doubled.) Or just ask questions, I’m happy to answer anything.

I know there are a fair few of you on here who are in “alternative” relationships (how I hate that phrase), and who will find the info in this post either very commonplace or even disagree with it. The exact setup is usually different each time, but I know of several long-term poly relationships including marriages of various sorts and they do not break down any faster than traditional couples.

As to the general stuff, poly is becoming more mainstream.
There’s an FAQ
http://www.polyamory.org.uk/alt_polyamory.html
And bestselling books
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/jul/06/women.features3


I wrote this because I’m starting to get asked about my relationships and I don’t intend to lie, but at the same time just saying “I’m polyamorous” generates a whole list of negative and untrue assumptions, and I wanted to head some of them off from the beginning. So fire away.

Edit: Excellent article on jealousy in poly over here.
LinkReply

Comments:
[User Picture]From: thessalian
2009-07-26 11:02 pm (UTC)

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Allow me to be the first to say, "Dude, you're awesome". I don't know if poly would be right for me (to be fair, I've never tried), but I do see the benefits, and you have discussed the bonuses and drawbacks to that way of living and loving far better than I ever could. It's courageous and wonderful and I wish you all the best.
[User Picture]From: duoinchains
2009-07-26 11:40 pm (UTC)

(Link)

Excellent piece.

While the mainstream media (and to some extent society) is beoming more accepting of polyamory, there is still a lot of misunderstanding and mistrust of people in such relationships as my poly friends encounter only too often.

As you say, if you and yours can make it work, why the hell shouldn't you!
[User Picture]From: explodi
2009-07-27 01:23 am (UTC)

(Link)

Very interesting. I've been thinking along such lines- I have been a non-standard person chasing non-standard people expecting a standard relationship and being upset when it can't happen. And have a fluctuating number of intimate friendships that seemingly can't go further because of apparent gravity/neediness/limitation. And I just recently realised that everything I thought I knew sexuality/relationships beyond a + b = babies is total conditioning and contrivance.
[User Picture]From: minnesattva
2009-07-27 05:46 am (UTC)

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For the record I am one of those people; I am married but I am also in a M/W relationship setup and have found most of what you say here commonplace, yes, but very well laid-out and very useful. I see here my own strengths and weaknesses, things I have to get better about and things that remind me why I am glad I do it. I'm glad you wrote this.
[User Picture]From: doccy
2009-07-27 07:28 am (UTC)

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In the tradition of my replies, I have to start with something that could be mistaken for humour in a bad light. So...

...How DARE you suggest that my love isn't finite???!!!

Aaaand that said - good to hear you're happy, and it's kinda odd to see you doing an extended 'rant' about, essentially, joy. It's awesome that this is such a part of your life that you feel moved to expound upon it :)
[User Picture]From: tyrell
2009-07-27 08:44 am (UTC)

(Link)

You guys are the very best relationship I know :) Don't think for a second I meant anything to do with poly is *superior* to mono, 'cos I didn't.

Yeah, didn't mean it to be a rant but it's useful to me to get some of the typical first questions down clearly. And then LJ habit took over and I wrote ten pages :)
[User Picture]From: frozen_in_honey
2009-07-27 08:30 am (UTC)

(Link)

Allow me to pimp Polyday? September 26th. Be there or be....ummmm.... monogamous? Are you going to be able to make it?

And on to your post...

"You don’t get someone ‘to yourself’"

Meh. Quibble. I think you can, within primary & mutual girlfriend/boyfriend relationships. I'm aware that Ben and I are slightly unusual, in that our girlfriends date us as a couple, not individually, but it does mean that a lot of the security a very intimate monogamous relationship provides can be present too. See my diagram :-P

"Two hot bi- babes who are just looking for a straight guy to be in a triad with is called a “Unicorn” by some, because it doesn’t goddamn exist in reality."

Allow me to disagree :-P

"you will have no free time. Ever. Your weekends will be booked up months in advance, and Christmas will bankrupt you."

Arrrrgh, yes. The solution is of course, google calendar, which is amazing and allows various sharing settings etc. "Polyamory: Sponsored by Google" :)

Also, I do reccommend this book... it's Very Good.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Polyamory-Roadmaps-Clueless-Anthony-Ravenscroft/dp/1890109533/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1248683005&sr=8-3

Hugs; glad you & yours are doing well :-D

Lxx
[User Picture]From: tyrell
2009-07-27 08:41 am (UTC)

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I'm aware of Polyday (and on lists with the people organising it!) From reports of last year's, it sounds excellent.

>>"You don’t get someone ‘to yourself’"

This was in response to someone who said "but I could never do it because I'd want X all to myself". In their case, any other relationship their partner had would be unacceptable - and fair enough, if that's how they're built. I agree that it's a paradox mindset, and there is no reduction in how much they are entirely yours even when they are seeing others, but I wanted to illustrate the problem rather than go into why it doesn't actually matter :)

>>Unicorn
Not often ENOUGH. Bah. Ahem.
And anyway, you're awesome and officially Doing It Right.

I have google calendar, yes :) And it tells me I'm busy on the 15th of August! Aargh! Aargh!

Thank you for the book link, hope to see you soon xx
[User Picture]From: celticwitch_0
2009-07-27 08:48 am (UTC)

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Thank you, just thank you. May I bookmark this? It's almost as if you've been in my head *g*
[User Picture]From: tyrell
2009-07-27 09:04 am (UTC)

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Of course you can bookmark it! I kinda wrote it so that I'd have one post to refer people to, and the basics do seem to be similar for everyone I've talked to :)
[User Picture]From: bencollier49
2009-07-27 09:32 am (UTC)

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I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that people have to be wired for it. Despite your comments above, I have serious doubts about the depth of romantic longing, sheer crazy mania, heart-rending, pulsing, world-defying devotion possible in a poly relationship. It could be that I did it wrong (Insert lolcat here).

I doubt the longevity of poly relationships. Therefore I consider them to be a non-maximal solution for raising children. Children like a stable situation in which they know what'll happen from one day to the next. They grow and learn better under those circumstances. I believe your polyamorist meme will die out with the genes of the people who carry it. It's an oddity that has sprung up at a very particular point in history when a lot of people from broken families are living in a world of infinite variety, but this will not long be the case, and so much for polyamory.

But I could be wrong, and under other circumstances I could have the temperament for it, but I do not believe that it promotes wealth and long-term wellbeing. What irritates me is that it's exactly the values of most polyamorists that I'd like to see promoted, so I'd rather you had lots of successful children, please.
[User Picture]From: tyrell
2009-07-27 09:42 am (UTC)

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You are a very strange man :)

I know people in poly marriages, many with babies, and a fair few in early-days relationships. The proportion seems to be exactly the same as in mono relationships.

My poly meme has been going for many years before I came along, and if society continues to make progress towards the bigger prejudices (homophobia, racism) I think the acceptance of non-traditional setups will be increase too. We're already seeing it - marriage is way down, divorce is about the same as it was proportionate to the lower marriage, and more people are choosing what they actually want.

We could regress into a rigid strata of what is conservatively socially acceptable, but I hope we don't.

Poly is as dependable and reliable as normal relationships and marriage. Children require more commitment, and marriages can break down. (I suspect they do less in poly, the 'you're all I'll ever have ever and it's not enough' pressure isn't there).

I'm not sure it does promote 'wealth'. That's not its goal. It certainly seems to promote long-term wellbeing in those who feel pushed to seek out the alternative approach.
[User Picture]From: philipstorry
2009-07-27 10:56 am (UTC)

(Link)

A great summary of polyamory.

It's not for me. I realised that years ago when I first stumbled across it, in a rumoured "hotbed of bedhopping" amongst Cambridge students.

Intrigued, I did nothing about it anyway as Cambridge was a bit far to go for a shag (if you'll forgive the crudeness - I was young!). But as I inevitably bumped into friends-of-friends from Cambridge I found that as I got to know a few poly people it wasn't as the rumours portrayed it. It was as you've described it.

The acceptance of poly comes from actually speaking to poly people about their lifestyle, rather than accepting rumours at face value.

(And the worst advert for poly is, of course, those that thought they were ready for it but weren't, and are now disgusted and angry because of it. I've only ever met one of those, but he was a total tool... Both before and after poly, by all accounts.)

As someone who has the emotional intelligence and maturity of a beetroot seed, I quickly decided that poly wasn't for me. It's rare that I can find one person who will put up with me, and I seem to be firmly monogamous anyway.

However, if I find myself lost for words to describe poly, I shall probably point people this way... :-)
[User Picture]From: tyrell
2009-07-27 11:02 am (UTC)

(Link)

I've found quite a lot about poly that you're either built for or not. I regard neither poly or monogamy as 'better' than the other, and people should definitely do whatever feels natural.

Please point people to the post, needing a summary post seems to be a recurring theme in conversations I've had so that's exactly what I intend to use it for :)
[User Picture]From: frozen_in_honey
2009-07-27 11:15 am (UTC)

(Link)

New point so new reply. I would like to maybe dispute this point a little?

There’s no jealousy (if you’re doing it right, and are built for it in the first place.)

Jealousy comes from two things: wanting the attention or items someone else is getting, and/or feeling that someone else is a threat.

If you’re doing poly right, everyone will be reassured that a new person is not a threat. (If anything, this is the main area that poly makes much easier.)


This is a lovely ideal. Really, it is. But it is an ideal that is so frequently perpetuated that it has a very bad effect sometimes... it makes people feel bad for an emotion they have. They feel like bad little poly people because of it.

Let me explain. I love my relationships, but in *every* relationship, you are always in some way a little jealous. Of nothing, more often than not. But jealousy *happens*.

Prior to meeting me and Ben, one of our girlfriends was in a triad relationship. She occasionally got jealous of the attention and romance the newest partner got. She and her boyfriend were living together, so they ended up doing a lot of mundane stuff; cooking, cleaning, collapsing in front of the tv *as well as* some wonderfully romantic stuff. Living, basically. Their new girlfriend, though, only got taken to dinner, romanced, etc. Let me point out now that there was *nothing* wrong with either of these situations happening. They were doing it right, in my opinion. But it made her become slightly jealous that the new girlfriend was constantly surrounded by romance and she wasn't.

So, she spoke about it. New girlfriend who had been in poly relationships before totally understood, funnily enough. They talked through it, formed ways to try to stop it. The boyfriend however, was horrified. He informed her that jealousy had no place in a poly relationship and that she should get herself sorted out sharpish.

I'm so scared of the "In poly relationships, there is no jealousy" mantra. It implies that if you do feel jealousy you're not doing it right. It makes people scared to talk about it, to admit to it. Which makes it more of a problem than if they were to say "I feel jealous because of this very valid reason" or even "I feel jealous and I know it is totally irrational, but I still do, can we find a way to make it stop, please?". It makes people doubt that they are capable of a poly relationship.

Jealousy isn't good, but it is practically unavoidable. We have been very, very lucky and avoided any major problems because of it (also, our girlfriends are quite good at talking about it), but are very aware that it will exist on occasion. Developing ways in which to deal with it is much better than reciting the mantra and occasionally actually helps as opposed to harming.
[User Picture]From: athena25
2009-07-27 11:49 am (UTC)

Jealousy

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I've always thought of jealousy as the flip-side of caring. That said, I am a very jealous person, so I'm going to stand up for it, much maligned and "ugly" emotion that it is. If you love someone, if you want to spend time with them, you are bound to get jealous if you can't or if you feel that things aren't being "fair". It's like being sad when something bad happens - not a nice emotion, but perfectly natural and something that should be addressed and dealt with in a "you feel bad, how can I help?" rather than a "you feel bad, stop it" sense.
[User Picture]From: athena25
2009-07-27 11:39 am (UTC)

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Love this post. And here was you thinking you wouldn't have anything to write for that little mutual project...

I go backwards and forwards with poly. Obviously I am currently in a technically poly relationship, but I know where my heart feels right and I know where it doesn't. Sometimes you have to chuck yourself in to find out though. I found some things easier than others, and having more than one "special" person around to confide in, to mess around with, to go out to dinner with was fantastic. However, trying to maintain that level was difficult. I always felt, deep down, as if I wasn't giving either of them enough, that I wanted to give both parties everything, rather than just some.

I'll chip in on the "having X to myself" comments, which are connected. Also because I think it was me that said that to you. It's a personal feeling, and I think it's got a lot to do with the hardwired for certain types of relationships. I like simplicity and clarity, and I'm not saying that poly can't be clear (communicate, communicate and communicate) but it *is* complex. It's all the complexities of one whole-hearted sexually and emotionally fulfilling relationship multiplied by the people in it. And all their moods, time comittments, day-to-day stuff on top.

So there's that, but there's also a gut reaction. If someone is with someone else, by definition, they can't just be *mine*. Sometimes I will have to compromise. Sometimes I will have to give up time with them, sometimes they will not be there for me. I want to be everything to someone, them to be everything to me. And sure, you can throw in the comment about work, family, blah-de-blah getting in the way of that, but those things are not the same as another "proper" relationship. It is different, and it is something I can find difficult. Nothing's perfect.

At heart, I guess I will always be something of a boy-meets-girl-and-they-pick-curtains type of person. I'm still experimenting with that, though. Probably more in the boy-meets-girl-and-they-go-out-and-muck-around-with-other-people. I want a relationship, then some icing on the cake. Not really poly, I guess.

Do I have a point? Maybe. I have always valued your impressions and thoughts on all of this, you've helped me sort through a lot, and I'll love you to bits for that, and for other things besides. I guess that really there just isn't one way of doing things, and if we are going to try and be realistic about life, the universe and everything, assuming that every person in the world would have the same sort of love-life is absurd. Like expecting every woman in the world to only want one pair of shoes. Not that men are like shoes, I hasten to add. But some do go better with certain outfits than others.

It's you. You're doing something that works for you. It's fair, honest and open. You're working hard to make it so. Fuck the unbelievers. Be happy.

Edited at 2009-07-27 11:43 am (UTC)
[User Picture]From: veronikos
2009-07-27 11:56 am (UTC)

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>> This statement will make most of you assume a lot about those relationships (and probably about me) but much of that will be wrong. So I thought I’d write a bit about something which has become important to me.

You don't have to justify it, Tyrell. Anyone that has spent more than ten seconds on the internet's social networking sites is familiar with the "o hai, im poly nao" genre.

>> Poly is hard work, but worth it many times over . . . It has all of the positives of monogamy, ditches many of the drawbacks, and the only thing you have to be able to compromise on is calendar time.

There is a physics to the emotional lives of men and women. With respect to stable structures, if it has a front, it has a back; and the bigger the front, the bigger the back. I'm not saying monogamy is better, generally or specifically, but I doubt your equation here is accurate. Nowhere, except temporarily and for specific reasons, does Nature permit excessive positive charges to outweigh negatives. You may be quite correct that the calendar time factor is the only compensatory negative and sufficient to balance the overwhelming positives you state. But then, it may also be that you are quite wrong, and that you are not capable or not yet capable of seeing the other compensatory negatives.

>> As to the general stuff, poly is becoming more mainstream.

How did Mum and Da (or other immediate family) react when you told them? Or is that a false assumption on my part? I can speak only from my own narrow experience . . . that when I am in a serious romantic relationship and overflowing with love and joy, I want my immediate family to know.
[User Picture]From: tyrell
2009-07-27 12:40 pm (UTC)

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This isn't so much to justify it as to let people know my current situation, and head off some of the immediate assumptions. Most of the people who would care read my LJ but no other social sites, and don't run with the same crowd :)

You're quite right about calendar time not being the only payoff in order to gain other positives. I think it's quite complex, and each of the relationships are different to mono relationships in myriad small ways. I'm also not trying to paint one choice over the other - poly is not 'greater' overall in any way. It concentrates on some aspects more intensely, and trades off on others. So yes, I agree completely.

I told Mum and Dad before posting this, but haven't had much of a reponse yet. I think they'll be fine :)
[User Picture]From: peppapig
2009-07-27 12:01 pm (UTC)

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That explains previous earlier posts this year :)

I don't understand it (well, intelectually I do of course!) and it isn't for me, considering I chose to get married in a catholic church yet. I can deal with other people doing it though it is *strange* for me to know one side of the couple and then be with them both when one is with another partner. Or know people with an open relationship which they forgot to mention that puts me in the position of omfg what do I tell the other person? (because you know, I'd have to tell them... Who actually knows anyway and doesn't care.... hmmm.

Anyway, I consider myself mostly pagan and it's not up to me how other people spend their time. I do find it's the pagans I know that do this ;)

I was going to reply to another post with how do you haev the tiem to do photography? *jealous* but now I need to ask that with added exclamation marks :)

From: pansgalliard
2009-07-27 12:36 pm (UTC)

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Hats off to you. I have an absolute respect for the scrupulous honesty with which you deal with your emotional and sexual needs. It’s rare.

As someone who has tried the long-term monogamous path (including marriage), I can say that it has been an unmitigated disaster. My partners were not honest about their ability to commit within that framework (just don’t make the bloody vows then), or indeed, their gender preferences or other sexual inclinations. Fair enough. Some people go through a long process whereby this self-discovery is a slowly emerging realisation. The dynamic of being with a particular partner may be the catalyst that enlightens. That’s not a crime. What is a crime is where there is a history of such self-repression and a person continues to try to fit themselves into a relationship mould that just won’t work – polyamorous or monogamous. That’s dishonest. Self knowledge is key. And communication.

I must admit that where I have little emotional engagement with someone and it’s just sheer lust and liking, then I would have no problem “sharing” them with another, as long as rules about safe sex were adhered to – and, my, what a trust issue that is. But where feelings run deeper, I would have problems. As you and others on this thread state, it’s a difficult line to walk when one partner feels undervalued and overlooked, with all the romantic gestures being heaped upon another. The worst scenario is to be slowly manipulated into a (mostly “quasi”) polyamorous situation. Men have tried that one and I have seen other women unhappily trying to accommodate it rather than lose their love. I won’t. It’s dishonourable.

Relationships are complex at the best of times, and I’m not sure it’s always about other people either. My partners often felt betrayed by me. My amour was not another man, but my art. It demanded my attentions, gave me huge joy while I engaged with it and took me away from home for long periods of time. I needed it as much as I needed them. While they were busy cultivating secret sexual relationships behind my back, they overtly took me to task for loving my job too much!

Despite your own (rare, you know) holistic attitudes to women, I think it’s fair to say there is an interesting gender dynamic within relationships, particularly where children are involved. Certainly, in cases where long-term, monogamous relationships have survived, I would say that 90% of those I know have entailed the woman taking on the traditional role of home-keeper and full-time parent while the man continues with his career. It’s a choice that many women are happy to make. But many more are not and have been disappointed with the level of fulfilment that such an arrangement provides. Even where there are no children, the male’s career has had primary consideration. How many women do you know have supported their partner and his career by uprooting themselves and following him around the world? How many men have done the same for the women in their lives? I know of only one couple where the latter is the case.

This may seem like a deviation from the topic, but I’m asking lots of questions of myself about relationships and creative freedom at the moment, and trying to be honest with some of the uncomfortable answers. I haven’t come to any conclusions. Nevertheless, I’m asking polyamorous women out there – does polyamory give you a wider range of personal choices, and if doing so, is there not a danger of becoming a categorisation? This one’s for domestic use, this one is for intellectual stimulus!

In relation to this, what do you do if you really dislike one of your partner’s lovers, that you consider their values to be warped, or that they are manipulative or stupid or cruel? There is never any guarantee that your partner will not passionately desire someone of this ilk. We’ve all done it! Would this not throw some confusing issues into the mix about the qualities that you possess, and whether you are simply compensatory rather than complementary?

Brain hurty. Time for tea.
[User Picture]From: tyrell
2009-07-27 12:53 pm (UTC)

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You give up things for poly, and other people directly gain. If that balance isn't restored by you taking other actions to make things equal, someone is going to feel bad. A permanently imbalanced dynamic only works if that's all the one losing out wants from you.

*Manipulating* mono people into poly is evil. I've started something with someone new to poly, but I was seeing another partner at the time and stated everything up front. It might be new and hard to deal with for them, but they knew I wasn't single and where the boundaries were going to be. That allows for consent, and no lying. Honour (and honesty) is *critical*. It may be that they eventually choose not to continue with poly, that they find some points they can't deal with. We're still finding out, but it won't be because I hid any aspect of it.

Women giving up freedom when children enter the picture isn't a deviation from the topic :) Children change everything. So does living together, and marriage. Poly is still possible in all those setups, but it has to change. You always have responsibilities to others in poly, but children become a point that can't be compromised on, and everything else has to fit around it.

I know poly couples who won't take on a new person unless all the partners like them and agree, even if they're not directly connected. The question of why your partner would want someone with those values (and whether they feel you lack them) isn't one I'd thought of! Great stuff!
[User Picture]From: chains_of_irony
2009-07-27 04:42 pm (UTC)

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I think you're really underestimating the people who read your journal if you think any of us were judging you negatively for this!
[User Picture]From: tyrell
2009-07-27 05:34 pm (UTC)

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Well, not YOU lot, because obviously you rock :) But believe me, for what could be just a minor issue polyamory pushes a lot of people's buttons.

A little like the word pagan, it's assumed you're immature and/or immoral. There's quite a range of folks on my LJ too, I'm still expecting some very dissenting viewpoints :)
From: seahorsemystic
2009-07-27 05:07 pm (UTC)

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In my humble opinion, I think as long as people are honest with each other, it doesn't matter if they date a lot, a little, have marriages with multiple people, sex with multiple people, and so on. As long as no one is forced into it, and again, as long as honesty is in total, who cares what other people do? I love it that you are happy and honest about it all. Then, that leaves the other person with a choice to make. They can make their own decisions based on the truth, instead of basing it on a lie.

Kudos to you. Yet another reason I adore you.
[User Picture]From: therealsherbs
2009-07-27 08:34 pm (UTC)

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Interested to see your piece here. I have been in a non-standard, fully consensual relationship myself in the past and it is very difficult to explain to people in a way that they can accept. In the end, for us, it didn't work as we began to want different things which were unltimately not compatible but for a while it was great.
[User Picture]From: freddiefraggles
2009-07-28 06:08 am (UTC)

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May I point a couple of people at this? It's very good! How do you have the energy to write after such a busy weekend?!

PS- RE: Triads - "yes it does happen" - yes, yes it does (and it's fun) ;)
[User Picture]From: tyrell
2009-07-28 06:35 am (UTC)

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Yep, this is here for the pointing to :)

It was great to meet you! And I didn't get sunburnt, which is a miracle.
[User Picture]From: rebeccawood
2009-07-28 09:52 am (UTC)

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Here's a topic I didn't think I'd ever be giving my thoughts on! It's a very thought-provoking post, and I'm glad you wrote it :)

I'm not wired for poly. I know this and I'm OK with it. I know other people are, and that's fine with me too. I admire your honesty and your candour about it, and that's what I find so thought-provoking.

My issue with sharing my partner with others has always been that I have missed out in some way. With one it was being told I was his "one and only" while he was off with other people. My major issue with this was the fact that he lied. In fact, neither of us were honest about what we wanted from that relationship. I wanted a fling and was uncomfortable that he said he wanted a serious relationship. He really wanted to date as many people as he possibly could and to keep all of us at arm's length (he said 3 weeks between dates is ideal to prevent forming bonds).

This is why I find the honesty aspect of poly so interesting. It is so easy to be dishonest in a relationship and not to ask for what you really need.

The second thing that strikes me is equality. My most recent relationship became a problem because he felt the need to shut me out in order to bond with this other woman. He devalued and sabotaged our relationship in order to strengthen theirs, and while he was with her (emotionally or physically - he wouldn't tell me if he fucked her) he was "getting a lot" out of it and I was losing out as I had nobody. He was ultimately being incredibly selfish and satisfying his own needs without being honest with me about what his needs were or addressing mine.

This is why I find the compassion aspect of poly so interesting. Because I could cope with him having a close female friend (hell, in my religion he has to cope with me being naked with men he may never meet and be OK with trusting me to keep my boundaries). What I couldn't handle was him insisting that there was no boundary to *his* friendship and it could become sexual. That was something we could not agree on and he would not compromise.

The biggest problems for me in any relationship are double standards, lack of honesty, communication and compassion. This is as much a problem in a mono relationship as in any other set up because ultimately someone (in this case me) is being treated unfairly and is getting hurt. If you're covering all those bases, regardless of what kind of relationship(s) you're in then maybe you're doing it right. :)

I will add that something that has struck me most surprisingly is how the openness and talking things through is offputting. Somewhere in my heart there's a little voice saying that talking everything through, being utterly transparent, getting the PDA out with a lover to book in some free time.... all of that seems utterly unromantic.

That's something for me to take away from this and think about... is it possible to get carried away with the romance and mystery of a relationship whilst still attending to the mechanical details?
[User Picture]From: tyrell
2009-07-28 10:30 am (UTC)

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is it possible to get carried away with the romance and mystery of a relationship whilst still attending to the mechanical details?

Yes, because once you've done the careful planning to get the two of you to a romantic dinner or whatever, then you're there with the other person and it's as romantic as ever.

The planning takes getting used to (especially since it often includes the implication "I can't see you that night because I'm sleeping with someone else") but what really proves it to you is doing it for a while. When you've seen that it works, that it's just the same as normal and that the intimacy and romance isn't reduced, then you believe it :)

Sharing a partner, you do miss out. Mostly on time and availability. If he's not lying scum, you don't get any of the other drawbacks you've mentioned. You get different positive benefits, mostly the ability to fill those gaps in the calendar with someone else you care about!

I think a lot of the problems you talk about here are the same in mono and poly, and nothing to do with the inherent structure of either. Not being honest is bad whatever your setup is, and and not wanting to commit when your partner wants and expects it is also a stumbling block. (If everyone is agreed to keep it casual from the start, fair enough.)

I've been lucky, in that the poly partners I've had who arrange things by PDA make it very clear that it IS romantic. They're either obviously delighted to have set a date to see me, or sexily precise about organising it and the things they thoroughly intend to do then. Calculating can be sexy when there's a strong will and attraction behind it :)
[User Picture]From: rebeccawood
2009-07-28 01:27 pm (UTC)

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I have another thought too - what are your thoughts on people who say "monogamy is OK with the right partner"?

The implication here is that someone will continue to pursue other interests *unless* their primary partner sweeps them off their feet and makes them forsake all others.

This could just be my cynical interpretation. It's a required field in a dating website I'm on, and if I see "with the right person" I read it as "I'll cheat unless I decide you're The One" and it puts me right off.

D'you think people are poly because they haven't yet met the "right one" to be mono with or is it a gestalt and you're just built that way and nobody will change you?

[User Picture]From: tyrell
2009-07-28 03:00 pm (UTC)

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That's... horrible. "I'll only be monogamous if you're good enough"?! Holding out some kind of hope for those who really want monogamy and hope they can change their partner? Crazy.

I think you could do poly at a casual level if you just want casual partners. I don't think it has to stop if you fall hard for one person (in fact I know it doesn't).

"Are people built for poly?" ...Good question. I definitely don't think people are doing poly because they haven't found "the one". I detest the idea that somewhere out there is a soul-mate and the one person who will complete you. It's bollocks. I've been in full-blown love more than once, and it didn't need that.

Poly people aren't (usually) having fun while they wait for the right person to come along so they can stop being poly. Personally, I sabotage mono relationships. I focus too much on what the other person *isn't*, and lament the fact that I can't have it in my life. Having said that, if I was as stupidly gone over someone as I was earlier this year, I could probably be mono and they'd be enough. But I was insanely in love, and I happen to know that state of euphoric bedlam doesn't last.

I'm still finding out what I get from poly. There is a lot of the day to day stuff which is immensely reassuring and fulfilling in places where mono left me depressed. On an abstract level, knowing that if someone I thought was really great became available it would not automatically be out of the question is a big freedom. I was not single when I met either of my current partners, and they are both people I've known for years and want as part of my life. Including them feels completely natural. The connections were already there. Denying ourselves that affection would be the crime, especially when it doesn't detract from either and no-one is harmed by it.
[User Picture]From: vodkafrenzy
2009-07-28 04:28 pm (UTC)

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If it works for you, then cool :)

The main negative drawback to it that I see (when compared to a mono relationship) is the time management issues and that you must have loads of energy. I'm mono and I sometimes feel like I've barely enough time for just the one relationship. The thought of having more than one relationship on the go at the same time just fills me with dread and makes me feel knackered just thinking about it. I probably shouldn't admit this, but I often feel that the time required for my one relationship gets in the way of all the other stuff I also want to do. However, I think this is just a reflection of my own priorities in life! And probably not such a good reflection on me as a person ;)
[User Picture]From: tyrell
2009-07-28 04:39 pm (UTC)

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The thought of having more than one relationship on the go at the same time just fills me with dread and makes me feel knackered just thinking about it.

You're not wrong :)

Mine are long-distance, which makes the planning more important but takes the pressure off the 'having no time to yourself' issue. But it's a major problem in most poly. And I'm the same about personal time as you are, I need lots of it.
[User Picture]From: missdennisqueen
2009-07-28 07:59 pm (UTC)

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Hi someone from another site pointed me to this, nice article with some excellent myth busting (and a few chuckles for those of us who have been doing this already!) and sooo true about polyamoury not being for commitment-phobes ;-).

I had an article relating to jealousy go up on a new site polyamory.org.uk today and they are looking for submissions, perhaps you should consider sending this.. You can find a link to the one I have done on my blog.

Clair Lewis
[User Picture]From: tyrell
2009-07-28 08:08 pm (UTC)

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Hi! Feel free to link to this one. I am going to write for other sites once I'm a bit more familiar with what's out there on the net. Which site did you see this on, by the way? :)

I like your jealousy post very much, especially as it says something I've been trying to articulate in my current relationships: if you get jealous, analyse precisely why. And then find out if that's actually based on reality, or if you're assuming something's wrong when it isn't. And work lovingly to get everyone to a place where they can accept things. I have a feeling I'll be pointing people towards your piece for a while :)

[User Picture]From: cath
2009-07-28 09:49 pm (UTC)

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I was aware of this as a set-up but didn't know there was an actual word for it (which thinking about it I really should have) - as far as I'm concerned if everyone involved is happy who gives a monkeys if it's not the 'norm'.

Thank you for putting it all together so eloquently :)
[User Picture]From: souldier_blue
2009-07-29 04:45 pm (UTC)

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I owe you an email with a bit of a life update! Still on for the 5th though?
[User Picture]From: souldier_blue
2009-07-29 04:46 pm (UTC)

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5th Sep, I mean. Calendar time indeed!
[User Picture]From: mysanal
2009-08-03 11:04 pm (UTC)

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Damn well done!

I've known lots of poly folk (I used to be in CAW) and I've seen it done Very Well and Insanely Badly. You definitely seem to have your head together and I applaud you for being very clear about how *your* relationships work.

Hubby & I are basically mono now, but our "dip in the pool" a few years back helped our relationship immensely because it made us deal with jealousy and assumptions we might not have otherwise.