Feminism was cancelled when we realised that all we really want to do is look good and...well, actually, that's all women want to do, isn't it?

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The implication is that she tries to look good to help her get a man. If fat was fashionable, everyone on the beach would be checking to make sure she was fat. It’s still about what men want (I’m not crediting the advert with enough liberalism to imagine she might be trying to attract women).

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That's not implied at all. Never in the ad does she look for male approval. If anything, it's the women who are the primary focus of the staring audience. Women and children, which also imply a feminine gaze.

The point they're making is that women cannot appreciate our own good points, and we have to judge everyone on every minute part of their appearance. It's the same sort of argument that is behind assuming everyone who dislikes the objectification of woman are "ugly fat women", because women, apparently, are fundamentally jealous, judgemental creatures. This myth isn't perpetrated by men, but by society in general, including women themselves.

The ad's basic message isn't that physical attractiveness is the only means to the only expected end (sex), which would be offensive in it's own right, but that your peers (other women) will shun you if you don't match their impossibly demanding standards.

And that, IMO is even more offensive.

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Certainly it's only women looking, because men staring at women on the beach to check they were fit enough would be sexist and a bit leery.

But the standards the women are judging her by are based on what men want. It's her ability to be attractive to get a man. If all men said tomorrow that they wanted someone who looks like Beth Ditto, the judging crowd would be ensuring she looked enough like that. It's a status thing, but women aren't the ones setting the criteria. They're just ruthlessly enforcing it.

Except they're not. Who the hell cares what a random stranger looks like on the beach? Boots do, because they want you to feel bad about yourself and buy their products.

As for women being judgemental, bitchy and vindictive to each other in ways worse than men are... well, yeah? :)

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You're saying that because you're a man ;)

But seriously, it's not implies at all in the ad that it's male approval she's looking for. It's reasonable in the context of society as a wholeto assume the standards are set by the [perceived] male preference, but in Boots' portrayal of the world, it's not men holding her to that, it's women. There are no men in focus on the screen at all.

Which I realise is what you're saying, but it's not an us vs them idea they're portraying, it's infighting within women.

They are not saying "men will want you if you look good", they're saying "if you don't look good your fellow women will reject you." Instead of the carrot of sex, (sorry, women don't want sex. Marriage) they're using the stick of social stigma, threatening women unless they conform.

Personally, I'd rather they used sex, because 'you're more likely to get cunnilingus if you have smooth thighs' is a less offensive message than 'people you don't know will judge you if you have hairy legs.'

You're right, they won't, but that's what Boots are saying.

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They are not saying "men will want you if you look good", they're saying "if you don't look good your fellow women will reject you."

Yeah, but I think it goes one stage further. "Women will reject you because you don't fit the principles of looking good to men." Sure it's women judging women, but the reason I don't think this is a feminist argument (or even a decision women are making solely for/about themselves) is that the end goal is to look good to men, where 'looking good' is defined by men.

(Except it isn't, it's defined by Ad Industry Men).

Totally agree with you on the 'CONFORM!' stick, that was what really stuck out for me.

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"Women will reject you because you don't fit the principles of looking good to men."

While this is the accepted societal norm, I don't think it comes across in the advert, which doesn't make the ad any less or more offensive, just that it's not showing where the ideal originates, just that it's women holding each other to it.

Sure it's women judging women, but the reason I don't think this is a feminist argument (or even a decision women are making solely for/about themselves) is that the end goal is to look good to men, where 'looking good' is defined by men.
I don't think it's a feminist argument because it's offensive, demeaning and objectifies women, which is unacceptable no matter who's doing it. I find this ad especially offensive because it implies women are doing it to ourselves, and it's all our fault. In fact, by avoiding focusing on any man, it absolves men of all responsibility for the state of affairs.

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Exactly. And whether it's women or men setting the rules, wasn't feminism partly about not having to conform so much to society's restrictive ideals?

They daren't put a single man in that advert, it would have changed the tone completely. I'm not sure I would have found it any more offensive than I already do, though.

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Feminism still is about that.

I think I might find it less offensive were there a man in there, personally. I'd rather see sex being used to sell than threats.

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Y'know, there are men in the ad, and they are looking.

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Really? I totally couldn't see one on the tv version (and I'm at work, so can't check now). Now I have to decide if that's even worse...

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They're not being especially leery. To be honest I think the ad merits more of a rolling of the eyes and a wishing the world would just fucking get over itself than a big rant, I see your point though. Thing is, that people (both genders) want to feel they look good, The process for achieving this should really be differnt for everyone but it's a hell of a lot easier for clothes manufacturers, cosmetic companys and so forth to anticipate demand when their marketing people are the ones telling people what to demand.

I personally think that people tend to look their best when they look like themselves. What works for one person doesn't work for everyone and while I wouldn't touch Kate Moss with a three week dead cat it doesn't mean that "skinny"="ugly" any more than "fat"="ugly". Case in point, I recently had the misfortune of a number 4 cut all over (was growing out the pink that had been in my hair previously and overestimated root growth). Some guys can get away with this, I looked like a ginger microphone.

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Yup, no matter what women tell you it all goes for bollocks when it comes to trying to get the man. However being fat or thin isn't going to make that much difference there unless you're a starvation victim or a beached whale, not if you want to get one for longer than it takes him to get his rocks off.

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That and pet kittens.

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Yay pet kittens!

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You forgot. She also needed to have 'just the right level of tan', not so dark she'd be ethnic, but certainly not pasty. Oh no, that would never do! Factor 50 and a big sun hat just doesn't cut it you know.

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shit. Thats where I am going wrong! ;)

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"...turns around and loudly tells them to FUCK. OFF. before sitting in the sun and opening a beer. And proceeding to enjoy herself."

Isn;t that a Boddingtons Ad? :D

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It bloody well should be.

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Indeed. That kind of behaviour is what puts me off going to my beach and lying there in a bikini. That and the possibility of hearing 'thar she blows' and being impaled with a harpoon!

Seriously though, who on earth wants to get brown and smooth just to lie on a beach, getting sand in their keks and sandwiches, listening to babies crying and boomboxes booming. Sod the beach - I will be in the pub, with the other interesting people.

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Actually, other women being too busy shouting at crying children and trying not to step on rubbish struck me as the more likely scenario when I was watching it. Like anyone gives a damn what the 1000th person on the beach looks like. Crazy.

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I think the lady in this advert is attractive. And I don't think it's implied that she is looking for man at all, it'a about 'feelgood factor' for the woman concerned. We can be all pc about it if we like, but the fact is that many women are nervous about being in their bikini. God knows why, when they are surrounded by men looking revolting in shorts :) Perhaps preparing yourself for the beach with products shouldn't be the way to make you feel more confident, but for many people it does. I for one feel better when I'm all dehaired, my stomach is flatter from emergency pre-holiday situps, and my toenails are red and sparkly. It doesn't mean I'm looking for a man, nor does it mean I am conformist or silly. And if the whole beach was staring I probably would tell them to fuck off :) Actually staring at me has it's own punishment because I think fake tan is silly and unattractive, so my whiter than white body would reflect the sun into their eyes and blind them!

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Bollocks to beach beautiful!

I'm short, overweight, and most of my friends (of either sex) would rather sleep with me than someone like the woman in the advert, any day. Pah! Just for that, I'm tempted to go get a bikini and show off my thighs...

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Good! Hurrah!

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I go to beaches in Donegal where no-one gives a toss what you look like and everyone chats to everyone else and the ages range from 6 months to 90 years old and the water is blue and fucking freezing rendering everyone a lovely matching shade of blue.

This, to me, is heaven and Boots wouldn't last 60 seconds there. They'd be burnt and then run out of town/village/small collection of houses.

I like Donegal.

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Now see, I keep saying that Ireland is a utopia, and my boyfriend doesn't believe me.

You have no idea how wonderful it would be if I could go to the beach for once in my life and not feel like I'm wearing a sign that says, "Beware Of Cow." Seriously.

Donegal sounds like the complete opposite of Florida, which is where we usually ended up going when we did the beach thing. Daytona Beach, no less. Spring Break central, now with models and college co-eds.

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Ireland is no utopia! It's just different... and Donegal is COLD. Remember this when you come here. COLD.

Today in Donegal it is 12 degrees celsius (that's 53.6F), with a wind of 21 knots.

There are cows on the beaches, they go 'moo'.

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Really? Good god! We're expecting a high of 89F today with 51 percent humidity, which apparently makes it feel about three degrees warmer. (So in Celsius, that would make the actual temperature about 32, with the humidity making it feel closer to 33.) The temperature is supposed to break tomorrow and be in the mid to low 70s (20s?) for the rest of the week, but Monday through today have been hell. I went walking last night, and between the heat and the humidity, I got dehydrated enough that my heart started racing. I hate it when it's so hot and sticky that I can't walk!

Man, I'm going to have to bring a lot of warm clothes, if I'm going in September. Lots of sweaters and stuff, especially since I'll be at Electric Picnic for the first three days. I can handle being too warm, but I don't cope well with being too cold.

Aww, cows! I love farm animals - they're rather adorable.

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the trick is to bring warm and cool clothes because two weeks ago it was 26C

ahahA! No rest for the wicked!

Cows are cute until they poo on you. Then they are not cute.

I'm going to Athens for work next week. Today it Athens it was 45C. :(

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My advice for Athens - buy a large bottle of water and carry it with you at all times. When I went there in high school, I bought the biggest bottle of water I could find (I think it was one liter), and drank water whether I was thirsty or not. It might not keep you cool, but it will keep you hydrated, which will go a long way toward keeping you more comfortable in the heat.

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oh yeah that and staying indoors = The Plan

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The Plan sounds good to me!

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I think you missed the point, there.

It's not saying everyone WILL look at you, it's saying that's how it feels when you get naked on the beach (which it does), and making a joke of it - it's very, very apparent that what happens is not true to life.

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I think it's designed to remind women that they get paranoid about it, in order to sell stuff. Even if it's being ironic or comedy, it still reinforces the body-image paranoia and sells the waxing/plucking/slimming/creams.

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Welcome to the world of Marketing.

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* lets the icon do the talking *

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I think the ad is obscene.

I think being judged at all (by men or by women) is abhorrent, and using judgementalism to sell beauty products is appalling.

In society we problematise (stigmatise? I forget my British English since I'm bombarded with Yank-speak day and night by the TV) a lot of what is human nature just for kicks. Think how boring life would be (and what it would do to the economy) if everyone only bought what they needed to to live, and their lives were happy and well-adjusted.

Britain would go out of business.

This is why I applaud campaigns like Dove's campaign for real beauty, and why I make almost all of my own cosmetics.

I agree that it is nice to be well groomed and to pamper yourself, but it should be out of love for yourself, and to empower yourself, not because you fear rejection if you don't.

I couldn't give a fuck what people on the beach think of me come summertime, and chances are that if you looked for me you'd find me on a sailing boat, wearing a pair of 10-year old greenflash trainers and a shabby neon life jacket. I'll have a patchwork tan and a peeling nose, and I will probably be having the time of my life.

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Yeah no, that was a mass hallucination. They've handed out medication and the patriarchy rules once again ;)

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Ah, innerbrat posted on Fangirls, gotcha!

Yeah, I figured it was something like that. I'd been sure other people had heard of it too, but the tv tells me we were all just dreaming.

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Actually I've been told we're in the midst of a conservative backlash, hopefully it will be over soon.

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Ugh. See, that ad plays right to someone like me, because since the age of about 11 or 12, the thought of going to the beach (i.e. being "revealed") has scared me to death. Years of having "You're fat!" and "fat = ugly" drilled into me by family, media and society has left me with more than a little paranoia about wearing anything tight and/or revealing in public. And since a bathing suit is both, it's double anxiety. (And a bikini? Right out.) I mean, I'm down two sizes since college, and I still find myself thinking that I'm fat. It's just all programming, and I know if I'd seen that ad, it would have started those wheels turning again.

Fortunately, I am getting better. I think it's a combination of several things - knowing that my body is not repulsive, learning that I'm never going to be a size 0 due to my natural build and realizing that it's okay, and realizing that freaking out about my appearance every time I leave the house is, in the end, a waste of time. It is not my problem if people judge me based only on my looks, and I no longer want to limit myself because of the scorn I might get from others. I have things to do, you know?

Still not completely at the, "Fuck off!" and beer stage, but I'm working on it. :)

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